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Poll

Opinion on adding this as a class

Great idea
3 (50%)
Good idea but needs some tweaking
0 (0%)
No opinion, I'll stick with my normal class
1 (16.7%)
Terrible idea
0 (0%)
Zombies for pylons
2 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: January 06, 2010, 06:50:13 pm

Author Topic: "Bracket" PAX class  (Read 4749 times)

fairgentleman Z

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"Bracket" PAX class
« on: January 06, 2010, 06:50:13 pm »
“Bracket” PAX Class proposal.

This class is for drivers to apply an index based on level of preparation and driver skill to compete with other drivers using same PAX handicap class.  This would apply to cars that are modified to the drivers liking and not to the SCCA rulebook.  This would also encompass road tire class.

For example Paul Vandenburg’s swapped NA Civic is by definition a SM car.  However, is it fair to compare to Andy Walker’s supercharged Civic.  There is an obvious difference in car capabilities.  To compensate, instead of running SM PAX of .867 Paul could run something closer to DS (Integra Type-R) PAX of .819.  Furthermore if he chooses to run a street tire instead of R-comp he can lower his dialed in PAX to .800.

How do you prevent a driver from creating a low PAX just to jump up to the fastest index time?  Here’s the catch; NO DRIVER IN THE BRACKET PAX MAY BEAT A PRO OR REGULAR CLASS DRIVER FOR 1st PLACE OVERALL PAX or they will incur a 10 point penalty.  This is to encourage running the highest PAX index possible.  

Confused?  Let’s try a real world example.  Using results from Event #7 ECC-N.

http://www.wny-scca.com/download/file.php?id=22

Felix Lopez is a regular and is pretty consistent but is limited by his 300M.  Obviously this is not a ringer car for HS.  So he dials in a .71 PAX.

Jason Sears comes to a couple events now and then and with the GTO hypothetically can’t justify spending money on R-Comps or an all out 200 tread wear ultra performance street tires and goes with a 300 tread wear high performance street tire.  So based on that he is not a regular and has set-up slower than a national level FS car he dials in a .78 PAX.

Jeremy Washburn loves to drive crappy Sentras and shows up with a gutted and caged car that would normally fall into DSP.  But the car isn’t built for DSP has blown shocks, stock exhaust and mismatched tires.  He dials in a .75 PAX

Raw and PAX time results are:
Felix:         43.699        PAX: 31.026
Jason:        41.213        PAX: 32.146
Jeremy:                 40.579        PAX: 30.434

Jeremy has the fastest PAX time, but beat Chris Morton’s PAX of 30.794.  Felix has the fastest time without going over and is the winner; 101 points.  Normalizing to that Jason gets 96.52 points, Jeremy gets 98.09 points – 10 points for going over = 88.09 points.

Next event drivers dial in a new PAX.  I’ll let Jim chime in on this but for ease of use PAX numbers should be two digits from .70 to .86 (anything higher is SM).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

JimPerrin

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 09:24:08 am »
Like we were discussing at the meeting, we need to figure out a way to measure "breakout" consistently.

What if, before the event, we nominate a specific driver as the "rabbit" to chase.  Which could be especially interesting if you picked a historically slow driver, and then you would have to pick a pax over 1.00 to have a slow enough time...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

dale

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 11:44:31 am »
I love the idea, but don't have a feel for how many people would be interested.

Also, there are lots of decision points, like -- is it a year long championship class, or is it a one event day thing? Maybe instead of a separate class, it's something you enter in addition to your regular class (say for an extra $5) and you compete for some prize money. Or, a hundred other possibilities...

It seems like it could be REALLY interesting.


Dale
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

JimPerrin

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 11:48:37 am »
I like the idea of doing it as a supplemental extra challenge style thing - that way people will still go fast in their own classes.  

I'm almost thinking that instead of a cash prize, we have some sort of silly trophies?  I just don't like the idea of money for something like this, because it might encourage people to sandbag too much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

fairgentleman Z

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 06:04:15 pm »
I guess I don't understand the concern for "breakout".  If someone does too good they just need to raise their PAX for the next event.  In my opinion that is better than "punishing" drivers for doing the wrong mods to their car and making them run in a class that they can not be competitive in.

I don't think sandbagging will be an issue because drivers will not know what the overall PAX time is until the event is over and final results are tallied.  Besides, I don't think the average driver is consitent enough to sandbag it just right.

I would like to keep the target as 2nd place overall PAX because that would give a fairly consitent target, and let drivers that choose this class know what PAX they need to use from event to event.  The smart thing is to aim for 5th in PAX.

What if the "rabbit" cones every run?  Having a consistent target (such as Dale or Dave) would allow drivers to know what PAX allows them to run at the top of the field.

I was thinking it as a year long championship class.  I do like the idea of it as a supplemental class with cash as well.  

Say whoever set overall PAX get 25% if they put in $5, otherwise they get nothing.  The five closest to overall PAX gets 25%, 20%, 15%, 10%, and 5% (either over or under).  The driver that wins overall PAX is not eligible to win "bracket" PAX.  

This is starting to grow on me, one driver gets money for being fast for his car preparation, five drivers get money for dialing in a good PAX respective to the fast driver.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

rushman

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 10:33:07 am »
I like the idea of the 'rabbit' approach, whoever comes closest based on the bracket pax they pick for themselves (based on who the rabbit is).

I think this would be a good supplement like the PAX challenge was, just not as a class by itself.  More of a side pot.

Winner takes all (that we don't steal for the club :-) ).

The rabbit would probably have to something like a random draw of volunteers who are not in the contest itself for 2 reasons, 1) keep it fair, rabbit obviously can't compete, and 2) don't want to hurt anyone's feelings without them asking for it :-) .  If someone who is working on improvement is picked as the rabbit and sees a bunch of people picking .6 as their pax, it might be discouraging knowing people are guessing they will be that much faster then them.

The other option is a 'rabbit' run at the end of the day.  Someone takes the lemon sentra out at the end of the event, and thats the rabbit run.  That way you can't sandbag during the day to try and 'catch' up to the rabbit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

JimPerrin

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 12:05:17 pm »
I have no problem being the "rabbit" since I'll be doing all the number crunching to make this happen.

I think the best way to do this is to wait until after all officially timed runs are done, and then I go out and make my "bonsai" run, so that everyone can watch.  Cones don't count, right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

SoraNezumi

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 01:06:55 am »
Quote from: "JimPerrin"
I have no problem being the "rabbit" since I'll be doing all the number crunching to make this happen.

I think the best way to do this is to wait until after all officially timed runs are done, and then I go out and make my "bonsai" run, so that everyone can watch.  Cones don't count, right?

 :?:  :?:  :?:  :?:




My wife LOL'ed
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

JimPerrin

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 07:35:41 am »
Dave likes to call his last minute, hold nothing back, pull out all the stops, faster than everyone run a "banzai run", so thinking of tiny trees makes me laugh too :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

rushman

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 10:05:38 am »
I agree about the 'rabbit' run being after the other runs are done.  As for cones, they should probably count in some way, or at the very least the rabbit needs to be respectful enough of the contest to no club them intentionally :-) .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »

CarJunki

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Re: "Bracket" PAX class
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 04:27:14 pm »
Quote from: "JimPerrin"
I think the best way to do this is to wait until after all officially timed runs are done, and then I go out and make my "bonsai" run, so that everyone can watch.  Cones don't count, right?
I think you should put bonsai trees out instead of cones....

But on a more serious note.... It does sound like a fun idea to try out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Guest »
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